https://www.linkedin.com/in/jgreenwalt

This diverse interview around design and medical crowdsourcing is with Jessica Greenwalt. Jessica is the co-founder of CrowdMed and pixelkeet. CrowdMed is a platform that allows patients to connect with medical professionals, or medical detectives as they call them, to help diagnose their own medical cases. It’s where medicine is headed. And one interesting note is that anyone can become a medical detective, not just medical professionals.

Jessica’s full time focus now is on pixelkeet, a design firm she founded many years ago.

Jessica is a wonderful person to talk with about design and where medical diagnostics are headed. I think you’ll enjoy this interview as much as I did.

Here are some other questions Jessica answers:

-How did you find your co-Founders for CrowdMed?
-How much do patients typically pay? It’s not too much.
-Would insurance companies in the future pay to solve cases?
-What’s your favorite story about helping someone through CrowdMed?
-When did you start becoming interested in design?
-What type of design do you like working on best?

Transcript

David Kruse: Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Flyover Labs. This is Dave Kruse from Madison, Wisconsin and today we are luckily enough to have Jessica Greenwalt with us. And Jessica is the Co-Founder of CrowdMed, which is a platform that allows patients to connect with medical professionals or medical detectives as they call them, which is, I like that name. And so patients connect with them, they help to diagnose their own medical cases. So it’s actually very nice and it seems like where it’s headed, why have one doctor to diagnose when you can have possibly multiple professionals that can diagnose you.

Jessica Greenwalt: Well actually the really intriguing thing about it is we don’t limit the participation to just people who work in or study medicine. We let anyone who feels like they have an insight that help solve this case contribute to the research and the process.

David Kruse: I like that. It can even be, well somebody who just knows a lot of a particular area or who had their own issues in the same area or like…

Jessica Greenwalt: Yes, absolutely. Yes exactly. So this real cool thing about not limiting it to people who in or study medicine is that it allows us to capture the wisdom of patients who have gone through these rare or difficult diagnostics themselves and the people who have cared for them. So if you have a family member that you were the primary care taker for, you know a lot about their condition, you’ve done a lot of research and especially if you are the patient yourself, you’ve done research not only on your condition, but all the other conditions that you thought you had leading up to getting the correct diagnostics. So all that research that you have, all that information and experience, firsthand experience that you’ve had dealing with this condition was prior to our sight just used on your case and your case alone and all that knowledge would be kept to one situation. But now you can use that knowledge that you acquired, everything that you’ve learnt and what you’ve gotten from your experience and help other people and prevent them hopefully from going through the same I’d say mistakes and the process that you may have uncovered.

David Kruse: Interesting. All right, well, so that’s – so it makes it even more interesting now and, so you can tell it’s going to be a good interview. I think it’s the first time in about 35 or 40 interviews I got interrupted on an introduction, so I like it, that’s how it should be, that’s awesome…

Jessica Greenwalt: Sorry, I didn’t know…

David Kruse: I mean, this is pretty formal. So no, that’s great and so the only thing I was going to add is Jessica is also a Designer and Founder and Owner of a design firm called, which is a sweet name called Pixelkeet and so anyways, Jessica thanks for joining us today, definitely appreciate it.

Jessica Greenwalt: Thanks for having me.

David Kruse: And so, love the dive in more into CrowdMed, that’s really interesting. I mean it makes a lot of sense, because you have a condition and you do so much research on it as a patient of a family member, so it’s nice that you include them. So I’m curious to hear more about how that works. But first, do you mind just giving a little background on who you are and how you got into design and then how you got involved with CrowdMed. You can start with CrowdMed.

Jessica Greenwalt: Yes sure. So I am a graphic designer. I have a Bachelor of Science in Graphic Communication from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, and I’ve been designing for as long as I can remember. I always knew I wanted to be involved in art somehow, even as a kid and even though my parents were worried that if you chose art as a career you end up being a starving artist, you know the standard response, when I was a kid wanting to be an art of some sort. But I just knew that what brought me job and that was what I wanted to end up doing. I didn’t know exactly what the carrier options were that involved doing designer art, but when I got into high school in Southern California there was a digital media class or interactive digital media course that had graphic design and that’s where I learnt what that was. I didn’t know that was a thing that you could do and I was really excited to find that, hey, there’s this thing. Its art that pays. You can actually make a living doing this. And even since then I started a design firm while I was in high school and continue – that’s what grew into Pixelkeet, my design firm now and I’ve been doing that for a very long time now.

David Kruse: Cool. What was one of your first projects in high school that you worked on?

Jessica Greenwalt: It was actually – one of my first paying clients was one of my neighbors. They had a construction company, so I worked on their marketing materials and brands. That was fun, that was a learning experience for me.

David Kruse: Nice, do you still have it, so we could throw it up on our websites.

Jessica Greenwalt: Oh! Man, no it’s old, but they don’t have that site any anyone.

David Kruse: That’s too bad, that’s too bad, all right. And so let’s see, right out of college, were you still just working on Pixelkeet or did you ever go work for some place or did you always just have your own place.

Jessica Greenwalt: You know I actually did, and just getting what I – I guess I call it a desk job. I was sitting at a desk most of the time, what’s the term for that, I guess corporate job, that’s the word I was looking for, corporate job. I got a corporate job as per the request of my step-dad who is used to more a traditional career path and he was talking to me about when I was getting out of college and I was like oh! I’m just going to continue working on my design firm. And he was like that’s – most people have a job lined up before they get out of college. So I kind of have this, I guess this deal with him where I go interview a place and if they offer me a job I’d take it, but if they didn’t I’m just going to go focus on my own thing. And then this place is the only place I interviewed and the only reason I interviewed there was because it was walking distance from the apartment, I decided to get what moving up the Berkley and they did research journal publishing, online research journal publishing, pretty cool stuff. I had no plans and nothing was the same, but I went. I did the interview and then the Head of Engineering got on his knees in the interview and begged me to come work for the company. So that was kind of me losing my idea to not get a job and I worked there for a little bit and I gained a lot of really valuable experience. So I’m glad I did it. It was a good idea overall, I guess to build Research Repository websites for Universities and organizations all over the world, like Carnegie Mellon, Georgetown, you name the university, I probably worked on their research repository website. So it was good experience and then at some point my heart isn’t getting to do a lot of design projects for a variety of organizations, not necessarily all in the same space. I wasn’t inviting and doing freelance design and then finally one day I was like, I just got to focus on my freelance because that’s where my heart it.

David Kruse: Nice. So how did you find clients and coming back to out of that job and getting back into so many things?

Jessica Greenwalt: Well, since I have had the design firm for so long, since I was in high school, I’ve been building up a client base since high school. There was never a situation in which I was like oh! Now I got to go find clients. There is usually a situation in which I just have to say maybe, no I can’t take this project right now. I’m working on you know X, Y, Z, have a day job, so I can’t do that. But once I quit I was like hey, I can do all the things.

David Kruse: Nice, well that’s cool. And what – and this is kind of a big question. But I’m just curious, what’s always attracted you to design and do you like taking some of these vision and making it rally or are you just like – yes, what parts are distracting you?

Jessica Greenwalt: I think I’m a very visual person and that is how I understand the world, but it’s just what makes sense to me. It’s difficult for me to take in information any other way. So let’s say you just explained something to me, you are like in conversation, I don’t know that I fully understand it or I guess absorb it as well as I do if I just see something. The visual representation, that’s the language I’m used to and I feel comfortable with it and at home with. So getting to do design is like working in the language that I am most comfortable with. It just feels right and its how my brain works, it just makes sense to me.

David Kruse: Interesting, okay. Well let’s switch a little bit to CrowdMed and then maybe come back to Pixelkeet later on, a little later. But since you gave everybody a little taste of CrowdMed earlier, so which is why everyone wants to hear a little more about that, so what year did you Co-Found CrowdMed and how did you find your Co-Founders and then I’m have further questions, but yes, how did you – how did you find it?

Jessica Greenwalt: So, actually we launched in 2013 for TEDMed in Washington DC and my Co-Founder Axel and I, Axel Setyanto is sitting right next to me. We were up for three days straight just coding this site that we had to launch. It was exhausting. It was a lot of work, pretty sure the experience took a year off of my life and at some point we had started out really organized about our co-check-ins. But then I think around the middle of the second day, you know like how you check in code and you describe what exactly it is your doing. Towards the middle of the three day process, all of our check-in comments just evolved and that was it, because that was all we could write at that point. So at some point several things became simply useless to try to look back to the history, but it got done and it launched and doing well now. So you know, ready for that.

David Kruse: And how did you come up with the idea and was there a spark or an inspiration for why you create CrowdMed.

Jessica Greenwalt: Actually my Co-Founder Jared who I met at a start up holiday party, was it a holiday party or just a party. I met him at a start-up party. It’s actually – you’d probably heard of it. It’s called [Inaudible] when they were young. They had their first party and his friend was hired to work there. So he was there and I was there and he started talking to me about Crowdsourcing and how awesome his Crowdsource loge he just it on web and he showed me the card and it was terrible and I told him it was the worst one I’ve ever seen. So obviously Crowdsourcing did not produce a good result there. He’s like, if you think it’s so bad maybe you could do better and I was like, well, I happen to be a designer, I can and then we kind of were arguing about Crowdsourcing for a while, but ended up working together shortly after that and he – his sister was really sick and that’s what actually what inspired CrowdMed, was this combination of his sister getting really sick and being incorrectly diagnosed for three years. Going around from doctor to doctor, spending over 100K on trying to get a right answer and it wasn’t until they got her into the NIHS program where they bring together several doctors with different backgrounds to work together on the case at the same time that they were able to get her the correct diagnosis. Because what happens a lot is people go from specialist to specialist and then the specialist will diagnose them within their specialty. I guess it’s similar to the saying, ‘to hammer everything with a nail’ situation.

David Kruse: Interesting. Well, that’s good inspiration. So all right, that happened before CrowdMed and so when you launched, you launched at TEDMed and so what was your reaction and how did you start getting people on to the platform. Because it is a two sided platform, you got to need the patience and you need to the keep on the other side, right, diagnosing. How did you pull that together?

Jessica Greenwalt: Yes, so initially when we launched, the reaction was, well prior to launch when we described the idea, there would be people who would be like, oh! That’s insane. I wouldn’t want [inaudible] trying to solve my medical case and not really taking into account the reason of the Crowd’s aspect of this. So that’s the other thing I meant to say earlier, was that it was a combination of Jared’s sisters medical case and then this book called the Wisdom of Crowd that if the principal behind that is that Crowd have more wisdom and more experience to draw upon than any one individual expert and are therefore more wiser than any one individual expert and can outperform them. So initially when you released people would call that crazy, but we had done 20 test papers prior to launch that had already been solved by the traditional medical exam and we wanted to see how our system would stack up compared to these experts right.

David Kruse: That’s right.

Jessica Greenwalt: And we had cases that have taken 20 years to get to a correct diagnosis and thousands of dollars, several doctors and all those cases, our Crowd was able to solve in a matter of weeks, get the same correct diagnoses that the traditional medical system was able to get, and that was for all 20 of these really tough cases. So it was at that point where we were like – we got something here and so we launched at TEDMed and people of course in the TEDMed crown were like, Oh! Yeah, I get it. It makes sense. Outside of that there is a little more pushback like, that’s nuts. But now that it’s been three years of us collecting data and essentially running this experiment. Now when we tell people about it, they are like, oh! That makes perfect sense. That’s someone who has had this experience. They have this condition checked with some of this condition would probably have a lot of valuable information to provide patients in the same situation.

David Kruse: Definitely. And how did you recruit those initial detectives?

Jessica Greenwalt: Oh! Yeah, so we tried all sorts of things. So as we mentioned, doubled sided market place. That’s a tough thing to balance. Initially, patients they find out about the site and this is very exciting for them. They are like, oh my goodness! Maybe this is the thing that I’ve been waiting for. This is what will help me finally get better. So they find out about us through the media, initially and then there is tons of patients, right. So the issues is visually to try to find enough medical detectives to balance that out and one of the things we’ve done is launch a program with the top medical tools where we’ve had med students recruit their colleagues to sign up as medical detectives and help solve cases. We’ve had a variety of competition throughout the top medical schools over the time, over the past few years and they – especially at med school compete against each other to see who gets the most correct diagnosis for those cases.

David Kruse: Interesting. And so do you have cases all across the spectrum, whether it’s from cancer to heart disease to those are two biggies but and broad and at first I imagine its probably hard to find detectives for every single case, but now how many detectives do you have and do they cover a broad spectrum.

Jessica Greenwalt: So the really interesting thing is that no one diagnosis given on our site or diagnostic conditions given on our site makes up more than 2% of the diagnostic suggestion giving in total. So it’s a very long tail.

David Kruse: One second, what do you mean by that?

Jessica Greenwalt: So there is no one overwhelming diagnostic suggestions given to all cases. It’s not like, it’s not like oh! 40% of them are some of form heart disease or cancer rather. Its 2% is the highest percentage that any diagnostic condition has on the site, everything else is below that. And the one that’s at 2% is Lyme disease.

David Kruse: Interesting.

Jessica Greenwalt: And that’s a condition. It’s a very difficult one to diagnose.

David Kruse: Yes it is, got two friends with that. Yes. Lyme disease is pretty popular in the Midwest. It almost got to me.

Jessica Greenwalt: You know how tough that is, it presents with soo many things.

David Kruse: Yes, it’s a nasty one. I’m waiting for the vaccine for that one, for the Lyme disease. Interesting, okay. So do you remember – well, I was going to ask about specific medical cases. I was curious if you have any good examples of like a really tough one that was solved or like one of those first 20?

Jessica Greenwalt: Oh! Yeah. Actually, so one that wasn’t in the – not in the first 20 cases. This is when we were actually running the site, so not a test case, but a real case. We had a patient who had been incorrectly for – and it’s not diagnosed for 20 years and what has been happening to her was that there would be extreme swelling in her leg and this fluid would just keep building up in her legs and her doctors solution was that was just have her come in every year or so and drain the fluid from her legs. So as you can imagine, it is not a great situation for her. She was bed ridden and couldn’t really enjoy life like she had before with this condition. So she was doing that for 20 years and she said she tried to talk to her doctors about it and they kind of dismissed her wanting to find an answer to it and told her there was no answer for her. That was just a strange situation and she just had to keep coming in for that process to drain the fluid and she uploaded her case to our site and within two weeks was given a just diagnosis that she found out was later right and she found a doctor who was very familiar with that condition and could help her. So there is that – first of all there is a name. What she had was a real condition and there are people who treat specifically that, so she is better now. After 20 years of being told there was no answer for her.

David Kruse: Do you know – so are a lot of these cases solved by one person or is it a team of people and do you remember who solved that one? Like was it a doctor or somebody else who had the same condition.

Jessica Greenwalt: It is a team of people. So it’s not one individual who kind of gets to dictate what they think it is. The way it works is he was sick, the payers sick. He went to a couple of doctors, specialists, he bounced around a little bit. Our average patient has seen about eight doctors just for some contact. So they have a medical history that they can upload and share with the community and what will happen is after you post your case on our website, it’s anonymous. You don’t have to attach your name or anything as much as you really want to and you can upload photos, x-rays, whatever supporting evidence that you think will help someone solve your case, you can upload all that information and then people all over the world start looking at your case or read it or do some research and then they’ll say, hey, you know based on what you’re saying, I am confident that the suggested diagnostics for your case should be, I don’t know, Lyme disease. And then someone else will look at that case or you know possibly simultaneously look at that case and then say, you know what, I support that diagnosis or diagnostic suggestion or actually I think it might be something else and then they will post their suggested diagnostic suggestion and then after a while you have several people reading your case and then either supporting a diagnosis or listing a new diagnosis or kind of challenging an existing diagnosis and after a while, after collecting the various information from the community, we are able to give the patient a report on what we think is most likely for their case.

David Kruse: Really, okay. So you guys kind of take all the different comments from the detectives and you kind of hold it together. Is that what CrowdMed does or do the detectives kind of pull it together?

Jessica Greenwalt: Yes, that is the magic of the system. What we use is a patented prediction bridge and that’s how we filter through the signal and noise. Otherwise it would just be a messaging board you know.

David Kruse: Right, right.

Jessica Greenwalt: But that’s chaos and what we’ve managed to do is take all that information and make it useful, make it make sense and actually assign problems already to each suggested diagnosis.

David Kruse: Really, Oh! That’s interesting, okay. Yes, I mean I can definitely see the future of this. You go to the hospital after and every case just gets uploaded. I mean you would think that would make sense. I mean not near every case, but any case that is a little complex around it, you think it just could be uploaded and save everyone time, money and let the doctors go back to work and let the crowd take over. I’m sure that’s your vision too, or at least.

Jessica Greenwalt: Yeah.

David Kruse: That would be okay. And so do patients – there’s an option to pay or do all patients pay or how does that work?

Jessica Greenwalt: Yes, the patients post a reward to the people who helped solve their case and that reward gets distributed amongst the people who supported the diagnosis of that patient for much as the back data for their case. So the patient has more control than that. They can actually allocate a larger percentage to specific medical detectives that they thought were really helpful. People who went above and beyond, went out of their way and were chatting with them and offering them additional information outside of what was posted publicly on their case.

David Kruse: What’s kind of a typical amount for the reward and what’s the highest rewards you’ve seen?

Jessica Greenwalt: The highest one I’ve seen is $10,000. They average around $300.

David Kruse: Wow! That is now – that is well, that’s impressive. You know a lot of value for that. Interesting. I just [inaudible].

Jessica Greenwalt: Yeah, yeah.

David Kruse: Interesting, yeah, okay. And on a completely side note, do you have people talk to you at parties and tell you lots of weird medical conditions that they’ve had?

Jessica Greenwalt: Oh! Of course, yeah. I have heard of some just crazy stuff.

David Kruse: I bet, once they hear what you do, right.

Jessica Greenwalt: Even over dinners, not just at parties. It’s like over dinner people will be like, oh this weird thing happened to me and there he goes…

David Kruse: It really sounds great. Oh! That’s funny.

Jessica Greenwalt: But at this point I feel like I’m kind of doing some side to it. I’m like oh, yeah I’ve seen that before or I’ve heard of that before.

David Kruse: Yeah, I suppose – yeah, you guys probably have heard a lot now after doing this for three years and do you – is it just individuals now or do insurance companies ever pay or post a reward?

Jessica Greenwalt: Right now it’s direct to patient, but we are working on partnerships with insurance companies and self-insured employers, so that the Crowd can be offered at a benefit to their employees.

David Kruse: Yeah, I could see that, interesting. And from a design perspective, going back to design a little bit since you know that’s your love, what – I guess what made you excited about working on the CrowdMed project and what were you thinking about trying to make it user friendly, a pretty good user experience when you first built the platform?

Jessica Greenwalt: Yeah, it’s been a really interesting experiment for users and design and during the phase design too, because what I need medical detectives to do to help the patient is to be really engaged and to want to devote a lot of time to researching and catching up with the patient and asking for more information. So you’re doing a lot of work on there and I have to make that as fun and enjoyable as possible so that they want to keep doing that right, so it doesn’t feel like work. It doesn’t feel like a research, it feels more like a puzzle or a game and playing up the challenge of it for the people who are interested in solving puzzles and who enjoy that aspect of it and then also pulling up the community, the outcome as aspect of it where like you are actually by participating in CrowdMeds, potentially saving someone’s life. So putting that up to the medical detectives as well, so that they know what type of contribution they are making to someone’s life. Not only are they making contribution, but they also wanted to make it like a game and the winners if you go through and try to solve cases on CrowdMed, it feels very much like a game. You get points and there are leader boards and badges where you got your patient. It’s like – I would say the Crowd that likes to solve the cases for fun, because they like solving a puzzle or the same type of people who are interested in solving something like a crossword puzzle. There are people who do this because it’s an intellectual challenge for them.

David Kruse: Well that’s clever. So how do you assign points?

Jessica Greenwalt: You get a few thousand points when you first join and then you use those points to show your confidence in the suggested diagnosis, the diagnosis that you are suggesting for the cases, you can say, I instill confidence in this diagnostic suggestion that I am going to put 1000 points behind it or if you’re not as confident you might say, I think it’s this, but I am not 1000 points confident, so I will maybe allocate you know half of that 500 points to the suggested diagnosis and that’s actually what helps us determine the confidence level of the people who are participating in solving the case.

David Kruse: Interesting. I like that, because then with your kind of algorithm, you must check up with the – do you follow through with the patients to see what the – if the diagnosis was correct?

Jessica Greenwalt: Of course, yeah, yeah, because we want to know for our research right. So to get patients to come back to us and tell us if the diagnostic suggestion we offered were correct, they pay a deposit upfront which is $50 and then if they – to get their deposit back they come back and tell us what their physician tested them for and they actually found out.

David Kruse: Man, you must have a lot of good behavior mechanisms in there. You guys have thought this through.

Jessica Greenwalt: Yeah, I mean it’s after three years of finding out what worked.

David Kruse: Yeah, well that makes sense and do you see as you get more and more cases – you know you said 2% of the cases are diagnosed as Lyme disease. So do you think there is any type of automation that will start happening where – I mean its soo hard right, because a lot of this is text and images, but at some point somebody could put some symptoms in and they go, you know there’s a 90% chance you have Lyme disease, but we can check with the Crowd if you want to.

Jessica Greenwalt: Yeah, yeah absolutely. I think this will go to AI [ph]. Right now we have a lot of free form text and then people are having to write it in the competition, but I do think that a machine can be trained to do this.

David Kruse: Got you.

Jessica Greenwalt: Should we act as a wise Crowd if you will.

David Kruse: Yeah, okay. All right, and so over the next three or five years, where do you want to take CrowdMed? What new features? Are you guys going to keep increasing the size of the platform which is probably true, but what else do you have?

Jessica Greenwalt: Well, it’s like you said. It’s too good at getting to correct answer factors than traditional medical systems. It would be better for everyone if it was the alternative to that system. So a patient could say, okay, I can go in to more specialists or I can just post my credit case on CrowdMed. If we were that option for patients, that patients knew to think about posting their case to our site before spending several thousands of dollars or going to a handful of more specialists, that’s where we want to be, we want to be that solution.

David Kruse: Yeah, and what about the more like real time. You know I guess maybe even for simpler cases or do you see yourselves mainly solving more complex cases?

Jessica Greenwalt: Yeah, we solve more complex cases, because a lot of the simple cases you know – if your – you’ve got another cold, it’s going to go away in a few days anyway or a week or so, that’s not really our focus. Our focus is to cases that are you know like I said, on our – our patients have seen a couple of doctors.

David Kruse: Yeah, wow. It feels like – once you start working the Transcom, does it feel like your started paying or charging more, because they are [laughing]. I’m sure you agree, but do you know how many cases you’ve worked on or have been posted. Do you have any idea of that?

Jessica Greenwalt: Yeah, yeah. Over 1,500 cases have been resolved so far in our system, yes.

David Kruse: Wow, cool, okay. And I know we’re kind of getting to the end of the interview, so let’s go – let’s end it more off to design. So I was curious you know. You talked about how you wanted the design to make it meaningful and you know it may actually save somebody’s life. So what goes through your head from the design perspective to actually design that? I mean it sounds good, but how do you actually make that happen?

Jessica Greenwalt: Yeah. You know I, in my – oh! Gosh, over a, I guess decade of experience in design, what I have learned is to not make any assumptions and to make something quickly. So come up with a rough draft and get that in front of an actual user and someone who will actually use the product as soon as possible, before I just make a bunch of those assumptions and guesses on how their behavior will be or how they will react to a certain thing. I just want to know, I want to actually know. I want a real user testing that out, so that I am not finding in the dark. So I do a rapid prototyping process that is what is popularly called Jed [ph]. I will test something out, I will talk to a user, get their opinion on it and then alter the sketch based on their feedback and depending on the response that I get I might do that a couple more times before I actually get into a mark up and then once I’m in mark up, I am still constantly in touch with users, people who are actually going happy with the product and I’m showing them these rough mark-ups. I don’t wait for things to look you know polished or perfect, because if I wait till that point, that means I could have invested a lot of time in a design that might not necessarily be as useful to an actual user as I was looking. I want whatever I do to actually serve the people who are going to be using it and I can’t assume that I know their experience well enough to make all the decisions for them. So constantly talking with a user is how I design things to make sure that they are actually serving their purpose now.

David Kruse: Got you, okay. And do you have any suggestions for like the – let me say for a company coming to you looking for a design as long as they come – because I am always – I’m a designer who develops software and sometimes it’s hard to know exactly what they bring to the designer. Do you like when people have like a full-fledged vision of like what’s in an app or marker materials or do you like kind of having more of a rough idea and then you kind of help shape it by asking questions and doing the rapid prototyping?

Jessica Greenwalt: I work with trying to off-see this and I enjoy officially the product. The advice that I would give to trying toward building a product is to feel comfortable showing that product off and getting feedback on it before they feel like it’s ready, because that’s usually the thing that hold a lot of founders back, because they are like, no, no, no we’ll only show this to people we have. It’s not there and no one will understand it and that I think it will work a year without showing it to any actual users and then they finally get it out there and they wonder why people don’t you know jump right to it or understand what’s happening. It’s because they didn’t check in constantly with the people that they were designing this platform for. So get comfortable showing things that are not what you think ready. You are never going to be ready, you’ll never feel ready, so you might as well find out sooner rather than later if you’re allocating your kind of resources the right way.

David Kruse: Got you. Well, that’s good advice and I think that’s a good place to end this interview, unfortunately, but its time. So anyways, Jessica I definitely appreciate you taking the time to chat. It was really interesting to hear about your design background and more about CrowsMed and what you guys are doing. It’s really cool. I hope it keeps growing a lot, because it’s a med service.

Jessica Greenwalt: Me too.

David Kruse: Yes, I’m sure. Nice service for the world. Yes, so definitely appreciate it.

Jessica Greenwalt: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

David Kruse: Yes, and thanks everyone for listening to another episode of Flyover Labs. I definitely appreciate it and we’ll see you next time. Bye.

Jessica Greenwalt: Bye.